Thousands of teachers, prison guards and students descended on the Wisconsin Capitol on Wednesday to try to preserve the union rights of public employees in the state that was the first to grant collective bargaining to government workers more than a half-century ago.
The new Republican governor, Scott Walker, is seeking passage of the nation's most aggressive anti-union proposal — a plan that would all but eliminate the bargaining process for most public employees.
The sweeping measure was moving swiftly through the GOP-led Legislature and would mark a dramatic shift for Wisconsin, which passed a comprehensive collective bargaining law in 1959 and was the birthplace of the national union representing all non-federal public employees.
The Statehouse filled with as many as 10,000 demonstrators, and many Madison teachers joined the protest by calling in sick in such numbers that the district had to cancel classes.
As protesters chanted outside his office door on the second consecutive day of demonstrations, Walker insisted he has the votes to pass the measure, which he says is needed to help balance a projected $3.6 billion budget shortfall and avoid widespread layoffs.
Walker said he appreciated the concerns of protesters, but taxpayers "need to be heard as well." Although he said he was open to making changes, he promised not to do anything that would "fundamentally undermine the principles" of the bill.
"We're at a point of crisis," the governor said.
It appears Wisconsin's government workers, teachers, firefighters, police, prison guards and more, are calling Walker's bluff on calling out the National Guard to go after demonstrators. It seems the lessons of Egypt and Tunisia have not been lost on Americans after all.
I can see why Walker is petulantly holding the line. He can't change his mind now or the Tea Party will disown him and his term is over before it begins. Having said that, it's pretty clear if this knucklehead's intransigence can get 10,000 plus Wisconsinites out to protest in February, it's serious.
It seems the lessons of the Tea Party haven't been lost on these folks, either...just lost on the Village who refuses to cover this. I guess they need more badly spelled signage, Revolutionary War era costumes, Gadsden flags and concealed guns. Instead, other than MSNBC, nobody seems to have noticed thousands of working class Americans fighting to keep their right to collectively bargain.
FTA:
ReplyDelete...many Madison teachers joined the protest by calling in sick in such numbers that the district had to cancel classes.
Seems to me these teachers have more concern for their union than the children they are supposed to be teaching. Well, at least we know they don't care about the children. Everyone of them should be fired and replaced with teachers who want to teach instead of being union puppets.
Zandar:
...nobody seems to have noticed thousands of working class Americans fighting to keep their right to collectively bargain.
Correction. The union is fighting for the right to bribe Democratic politicians at taxpayer expense.
By the way, Rep. Tom Price (R-GA) submitted an amendment to defund the NLRB. I love it.
It won't matter how much they love the children if they end up losing their jobs anyway, right?
ReplyDeleteAnd as a guy who spent time as a teacher, I'll be the first to tell you that you really have no idea what you're talking about, Steve. Really. If they wanted to not be represented by a union, they could go to the private schools - and earn about $10 K less money on average. Do you think people should low ball their own worth, Steve? Would you like to be fired and settle for a job with less job security and less pay? I'm thinking they love the kids just as much there, but people have to eat too.
I remember 2 hour commutes, grading papers on the week end as well as setting up lesson plans, calling uncaring parents about what their 'darling child' did in class. You would not last 6 months teaching the 2 session ESL class I had along with the math and science class I had elsewhere. All for considerably less than I make now, and I'm not using my physics degree. [Rather, I am, but people look at me with a confused look when I do]
Whatever - enjoy your weekends and 40 hour work weeks; a union fought to give it to you once, you ingrate.
SteveAR does not think he needs unions. He thinks that sucking corporate cock will make sure he's well-taken care of.
ReplyDeleteIt's a nice little delusion.
Yeah, screw labor laws, the Labor department, OSHA, and the NLRB. Your employer wants to demand you work 100 hours a week on salary with no OT in an economy like this, why should workers have any rights?
ReplyDeleteWorkers aren't even American, only CEOs matter.
abanterer:
ReplyDeleteAnd as a guy who spent time as a teacher, I'll be the first to tell you that you really have no idea what you're talking about, Steve.
Well, that's where you're wrong, buster. My father was a public school teacher for 25 years. My mother was one for 10 years when she got sick of the whole thing. I know more about this than you think. He told me all the stories, the same ones you mentioned. And he hated the union. Hated it. He knew what it was, bullshit.
It won't matter how much they love the children if they end up losing their jobs anyway, right?
You really don't get it, do you? Who pays teachers' salaries? The teachers' bosses, the taxpayers. If taxpayers aren't getting raises in their jobs during this recession (I haven't had one in three years), how is it that the government employees' deserve increases, increases that are usually far beyond what private sector taxpayers would get during the good times?
Whatever - enjoy your weekends and 40 hour work weeks; a union fought to give it to you once, you ingrate.
You mean when they were relevant and actually fought for the workers? That was what, 90 years ago, when there was no real global competition for goods, and the economic base for the country was far different? The same unions who don't let the unions' own employees organize? What have unions done for the vast majority of the American people lately, as in the last 30 years? Nothing. They are as irrelevant and as archaic as Amtrak.
SteveAR does not think he needs unions.
ReplyDeleteI don't. Neither do most Americans. Only people living in the New Deal world of the 1930s believe American workers still need unions.
Zandar:
ReplyDeleteYour employer wants to demand you work 100 hours a week on salary with no OT in an economy like this, why should workers have any rights?
I hate to break the news to you, but most people in professions like mine, and many others, have to do that anyway, work 100 hours a week on salary with no OT, even during good economic times. It's called "part of the job". During good economic times, that earns me bonuses and salary increases. I don't need a union that would take money out of my paycheck and provide no additional benefits.
Did you read what I wrote? I said the NLRB would be defunded; the the enforcement of labor laws would remain funded (the NLRB's activities can be done by the states, since they have their own LRBs), the Dept. of Labor would still be funded (although it shouldn't since its useless), and OSHA will still be funded (although it should move to the DoJ).
By the way, here is a piece from 2004 explaining OSHA's role from 1982 to 2002. It's not a pretty picture. It confirms the pointlessness of having a Cabinet Department like Labor remain; like I said, what OSHA does could move to the DoJ to get rid of the overhead of the Labor Department. Wouldn't that be more efficient government, something you liberals say you want?
Did you read what I wrote? I said the NLRB would be defunded; the the enforcement of labor laws would remain funded
ReplyDeleteOh, but regulations are bad, too. Didn't you hear? And so are government agencies in general, community activists, taxes, tariffs, and lawsuits on behalf of mistreated workers. And unions, the one way that workers can protect themselves without the aid of their government, are the most evil of all.
Those are the arguments of the right wing. In their zealotry, wingers simply believe that these things are intrinsically 'evil' -- they've forgotten, or never cared, that they've been told to believe this because these things all threaten the profit margins of their plutocratic masters.
Just add them up, and you can easily see the motive. Its basically as abanterer said... anything that's not utter capitulation to the whims of the corporate sociopaths and the uberwealthy elite is bad.
You can thank unions for weekends, 40 hour work weeks, vacations, lunch hours and a whole host of other things we take for granted in our culture.
bughunter:
ReplyDeleteYou can thank unions for weekends, 40 hour work weeks, vacations, lunch hours and a whole host of other things we take for granted in our culture.
And I can thank unions for having driven up the costs of goods and services in order for them to pay off their masters in the Mafia, who also had financial interests in the businesses these union employees had worked in. The only difference between then and now is the Mafia was replaced by the Democratic Party as the masters of the unions. And the Democrats are much more intrinsically crooked than the Mafia since Democrats enact laws the Mafia would break.
Read what I wrote above; there are millions of us who often work much more than 40 hours a week and don't get OT or a "lunch hour". We will get bonuses and raises as a result of the extra work, but it isn't mandated by law; in fact, it's determined by the market.
By the way, there's a couple of videos of those protests in Wisconsin. First, teachers shamefully brought students to the protests, students who had no idea what was going on.
ReplyDeleteSecond, we are shown images of protesters. Had this been a Tea Party rally, Zandar and the other leftists would have had a field day. But since the people protesting are union members, leftists like Zandar will condone the hate speech from these people. Because it's OK for the "some people" to engage in "eliminationist rhetoric", but not for others ("Some animals are more equal than others." - Animal Farm).
I have a question for the lefties, one I'm sure they'll not answer. Isn't there supposed to be a government by, of, and for all of the people? Or just by, of, and for public employees, their unions, and Democratic politicians?
Oh look, libs comparing Scott Walker to Hitler and making threats against him. There's a surprise.
ReplyDeleteAs a violent, dangerous eliminationist yourself I DEMAND you denounce these violent and dangerous union thugs.
Oh wait, you run your Hate site, which has been reported yet again to Homeland Security. Of course you support these criminals.
You two do realize Walker and Wisconsin Republicans created Wisconsin's fiscal shortfall through tax cuts in the first place, yes?
ReplyDelete"The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately.
Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office."
And he's using the excuse of this fiscal emergency -- the emergency he signed into law to create -- in order to bust state employee unions.
That's how Republicans work. Cut taxes to create a shortfall, declare a fiscal emergency because of the shortfall, use the excuse to target state employees. That's exactly what Republicans have done at the national level, only on a much larger scale.
Pay attention.
Yeah, I read that. It's bullshit. You have numbers generated by a leftist blogger, somebody at a leftist think tank, and an editorial board at a leftist newspaper, and you think those numbers are believable? Maybe these idiots should actually read the report. With corrections, deferrals, and the spending shortfalls reported, there was no surplus; Scott has it right. Even without the projected revenue reduction (which is questionable), there was no surplus.
ReplyDeleteYou know what else Scott has right? He's trying to save the jobs of these assholes who have illegally gone on strike. He isn't denying them collective bargaining rights for salaries; just for benefits (I believe some get to retain that as well). And what does he want public employees to do? Pay a portion of their health insurance and pension funding costs, just like the vast majority of private sector workers do.
Hey, if this bill doesn't pass? Fine by me. Those who have illegally gone on strike should be so that way they don't get unemployment. Then he'll have to layoff the rest. All because these union assholes believe they are above the rest of us and shouldn't have to share the pain of this recession.
Correction:
ReplyDeleteThose who have illegally gone on strike should be so that way they don't get unemployment.
It should read: Those who have illegally gone on strike should be fired so that way they don't get unemployment.
By the way, did you see how these protesters left the areas they were demonstrating in? Like they were pigs (which is an insult to pigs).
Take a gander over here to read how home-grown and bussed-in union thugs (those union/Mafia days never really left, did they?) are threatening Wisconsin Republicans with violence and attempting to intimidate their families. Guess that puts the lie that "eliminationist" rhetoric only comes from the right, doesn't it? But we knew that was bullshit already.
Take a look at page 5 of this report. It shows deficits of over $2.5 billion for the two years of the current budgeting period. That report came out in July. Per Scott, that deficit has increased, and there's every reason to believe him.
ReplyDeleteI told you that piece from Beutler was bullshit. He's trying to say the state had a surplus? Yeah, he pulled that out of his ass.
Sorry Steve. That's the 2010 report. Beutler specifically mentions the Wisconsin Fiscal Bureau report from last month which indeed says on page 11 that the tax break bills that Republicans passed and Walker signed into law will end up costing the state over $115 million dollars over the next two years.
ReplyDeleteYou lose. Thanks for playing.
God, you really don't know how to read English, do you? Didn't you read the first line of Table 6 on page 5? It says:
ReplyDelete"For the 2011-13 Biennium"
For the record, the years 2011, 2012, and 2013 are not in year 2010.
You know, it's typical of you leftists to ignore facts when presented to you. That way, you can say whatever you want. Except when someone presents the facts.
Oh, oh...I sense a leftist looking to close a thread...
Considering Wisconsin teachers make $52,000 a year with excellent health and other benefits 100% at the expense of Wisconsin taxpayers, one has to wonder why they should have ever been allowed to have bargaining rights in the first place.
ReplyDeleteGov. Walker is doing the right thing here and a majority of Americans support him.
And anyone who believes the bullshit that "Democrats care about working class Americans" forgets that Bill Clinton and Al Gore sent millions of manufacturing jobs to Mexico with NAFTA and the free trade agreements that followed...and the unions went right along with the plan.
Unions are corrupt and evil and must be eliminated.
I'd say Steve has trounced you throughly with FACTS.
ReplyDeleteBut go ahead, close the thread like the petulant little brat you are. I'm done here.
I go away to work and come back and there is a ton of Con scat all over it. Is it worth it to shovel up? No, probably not.
ReplyDeleteBut, I will go over a few points:
1. I find some weird contradictions in how unions are portrayed by Steve. On one hand, he says they aren't fighting for the workers, and are irrelevant and had been for decades. Then he turns about and complains that union members earn too much. I hold that these are somewhat contradictory.
2. The idea that OSHA should be sent into the DOJ is not particularly effective, unless your goal is to simply eliminate OSHA. The DOJ has limited resources to go after a business for something currently considered a misdemeanor; most are settles out of court with civil penalties.
3. The analogy with the Mafia and the Democrats is bizarre, frankly, and suggesting that Democrats are criminals for enacting laws that a criminal could break is very very strange, but I'm chalking that down to not being particularly clear after a 100 hour shift without a break, not even to post on this blog.
ReplyDelete4. You're not allowed to quote Orwell, because that mean old socialist will get out of his grave and punch you.
5. I would pose your question back at you: Is this government by, for, and of the people, or 'the market' which seems so fond of dumping on all but a handful of lucky folks at the top?
6. You cannot complain about sources being 'leftist' and then put up links to Althouse as if she were a neutral source; I call shenanigans.
ReplyDelete7. Zandar's report is more recent and is pointing out that Scott's plan is costing the state money. Now, you could very well be right on that surplus, because state's enjoy making nice rosy pictures when they can, and as a vet of many city council meetings, I know this of old. But, my experience generally tells me that when staff reports boil down to 'your plans are costing us money', they generally mean it.
Do I want to mock Problem too? Sure, I'm awake and I'm out on a 3 day weekend - well deserved, BTW, as I haven't had one in quite a while.
ReplyDelete1. You're a dick. I feel this is important to get out of the way, to ground the conversation around a basic fact.
2. RE: $52000; That's a median, but it's also a wildly fluctuating amount from state to state and district to district. It'll be shifted up due to the fact that the teaching population is growing older on average, because there isn't a great influx of newer teachers into the system, and that the districts that are a bit more plush also tend to have more teachers per student. More teachers with more experience and thus a higher pay grade over the other districts. Maybe you think they should earn less money and fewer bennies, but I suspect you would breathe hell fire if I asked that you make the same sacrifice 'for the cause'. Artificial horse insemination really isn't that hard, is it, Problem?
2a. Yeah, I went there. Don't care. I fully admit that Problems a dick and that's my defense.
ReplyDelete3. NAFTA was initially formulated under Reagan and signed by Bush senior, but it was ratified by the Senate under Clinton. Read a book.
4. NAFTA actually had quite a bit of criticism from the unions, but it would require reading an article or three, so just look it up in Wikipedia. No need to thank me, Citizen - just doing my job.
5. Re: this phrase - "Unions are corrupt and evil and must be eliminated."
Enjoy your weekend, ingrate.
See you Monday, folks!