"They really do need to realize that the rhetoric and firing people up and, you know, things for example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the things is, the way she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gunsight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize there's consequences to that action."
Consequences indeed. Like someone shooting you in the head, point blank.
No matter what this lunatic's motives were, there is still no excuse for violent rhetoric. As far as Palin goes, she understands that, hence the efforts to remove these "targeted" references from her site today. No such luck, Sarah.
Feeling guilty, are we?
But there's no mistaking this guy's target was Gabrielle Giffords. This was an assassination attempt on a sitting member of Congress. He killed 5 others to try to escape. His original target was Giffords, who was apparently shot in the temple at close range.
You cannot say the hateful language of the extreme right did not contribute to this.
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25 comments:
And now you complete your failure by blaming the Tea Party for this when Loughner was a liberal!
Liberals are dangerous.
Liberals KILL people who don't agree with them!
Liberals like Zandar...you have to wonder. Do you have any readers left? They can't possible support you and this shameful blog after this. The backlash you and other liberals will get after this will shock and awe you. You won't be able to get a liberal elected to dogcatcher after this weekend.
That reminds me...
Did you know that Zandar is a fraud?
He created a commenter named Arcadian as a sock puppet and used the account for months until he got busted.
When real conservative commenters destroy his terrible arguments he panics and he locks his threads so he gets the last word in.
When conservative blogs call him out and PROVE he's nothing more than an ignorant fool, a gullible hack and a race-bating idiot he runs for the hills.
Zandar is a proven liar, fraud, and fool. He will lie to you and try to fool you again because he thinks you're the "Stupid" he's fighting against.
Why are you wasting time on this blog? Don't feed his ego. If you leave, he'll shut this travesty of a blog down. Help this poor, deluded man.
Before he lies to you again. He's pathological.
Now you can add "VIOLENT EXTREMIST" to his record of HATE too!
How can anyone support this shameful, evil HATE SITE?
Oh No!
Also, I'm a moron.
In fact, I have to come clean.
I lie, constantly.
I live in my mother's garage, and bathe infrequently.
I don't date, and women find me repellent, so I vent my frustration by spewing bile across the internet.
Please love me.
I expect this feeble "blame the right, blame the left" crap from other blogs.
Not this one.
You've lost a reader.
Did I mention that Giffords was a pro-gun, pro-border security Blue Dog?
No wonder a LIBERAL tried to kill her...
Zandar's Credibility Problem has his own Credibility Problem of his own. This guy was clearly having some sort of break, and very likely swayed by a lot of rhetoric of revolution against the government. You only have to look at his YouTube Page, or you can get transcripts, to see that. Anyone already experiencing that level of paranoia will cling to the sort of conspiracy theories that confirm his beliefs. That most of these crazy conspiracies can be found from crazy Tea Party folk and Fox News is not a coincidence.
And here's Problem, being a dick, and saying 'someone he knew said he was a liberal', and then tossing out a stream of bullshit conclusions based on his shoddy premise. This includes the 'liberals are dangerous killers' theory, which I personally find funny, what with the Democrat Congresswoman what's been shot, and Obama receiving more death threats than Bush, and should I lump in the man who shot up that church last year? Yes, I think I shall, as well as the guy who shot Dr. Tiller. And McVeigh. But we're dangerous. Boo.
So glad Problem could stop by and be a dick yet again by spamming the blog comments, rather than sit on his hands in an act of decency and reading the updates. It reminds me why I vote Democratic.
Because, Fuck you, Problem. With sand.
I'll say this again.
The vitriol out there is so incandescently hot that you cannot ignore it being related to this incident.
And at banterer pointed out, it is far from the first incident of this stripe.
Believe what you will. You cannot repeatedly say to millions of people the language of violence and not expect violence to happen.
You want some hateful language? How about this:
"My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!"
Which member of the extreme right said this hateful rhetoric? A diarist at DailyKos. That diary entry doesn't exist anymore.
In a more recent post, Zandar said this:
...but even I have to see this as a message to all of us that we have got to knock this crazy shit off.
Zandar, I hope you take your own advice because you are an active contributor of hateful rhetoric. Don't believe me? Just take a look at this post of yours.
Seems SteveAR saved us the trouble there Zandar.
If Sarah Palin or any conservative pundit is responsible for this, then so are you.
I demand you shut this hate site down as a result. Immediately.
Apply your own standard to yourself, and admit you failed.
SHUT THIS HATE BLOG DOWN!
Both of you are really, really over the line here.
You both also completely missed the point. His politics didn't matter. What mattered was A) a mentally unstable person with a criminal record was able to legally buy a gun in Arizona, and B) the climate of violence and rhetoric of anger out there against public officials has reached a dangerous level.
Those two factors contributed directly to the deaths in Tuscon yesterday.
Even you two have to be able to see that.
How much of "Part B" there do you bear direct responsibility for?
As much as Sarah Palin in your eyes? More? Less?
Why not worry about your OWN hateful rhetoric instead of blaming Sarah Palin like a COWARD? That's something YOU can control.
End your own hate speech and shut this blog down NOW!
Oh hell, SteveAR pulled out the "no u r racist" card. Cute. And checking the last link... wow. That's hate speech. Holy hell, Mighty Whitey is Mighty Thinskinned. Or Mighty Stupid.
Also, BoyBlue pulled their diary on their own, it was not scrubbed. One does does think that "she's dead to me" is the absolute *least* in incendiary rhetoric, but one notes that they have withdrawn it because they felt it was over the line considering yesterday.
But hey, as long as you can say "liberals do it too", right?
And in ring number 2, we have the Incredible Credibility Problem fapping away at the idea of the blog shutting down. Kinda depressing in a way, to see someone so desperate for that fleeting hope of some sort of power.
Guess you have to shut the blog down, Zandar, so the ICP can finally get off and feel that rush of power that they otherwise never get working at their deadend job, haranging and trolling blogs for that sweet, sweet high of a power trip.
Or, you know, don't. I'd rather you not, it's not like you're responsible for his feelings.
Anyways, I am suprised with how easy it is to think you that two are morons. It's like you give daily reminders or something.
You both also completely missed the point.
I don't think so.
His politics didn't matter.
Really? Then why did you tag this post under "Sarah Palin" and "Wingnut Stupidity" if you didn't think his politics mattered?
What mattered was A) a mentally unstable person with a criminal record was able to legally buy a gun in Arizona,...
That is a legitimate point.
...and B) the climate of violence and rhetoric of anger out there against public officials has reached a dangerous level.
And you contribute greatly to that yourself.
Those two factors contributed directly to the deaths in Tuscon yesterday.
Oh, really? I went back to some of your posts regarding the 2009 Ft. Hood massacre. You made it a point, as much as you could, to make it seem like Islamist terrorism had nothing to do with it; even in a post where you begrudgingly admitted that it could linked to Islamist terrorism, you tried to avoid it as much as possible, which you managed to do later. Have you ever read the Koran? Do you even know what's in it? I have, although it's a tough read. While the vast majority of Muslims practice Islam peacefully, the extreme rhetoric within parts of the Koran have been used by terrorists to run countries like Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan under the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, and bring out the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah, and so on, not to mention Osama bin Laden and his ilk. Yet you do everything but admit the obvious when it comes to terrorists like Maj. Hasan, but have no problem tying Palin and "wingnuts" to a nut like Loughner. Your "concern" is either disingenuous or ideologically hypocritical.
The rhetoric used by Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, etc., is also one other thing: free speech, protected by the Constitution. These people had nothing to do with yesterday's tragic shooting. Nothing. But if you persist in saying it is, then you shouldn't have a problem sharing responsibility for the Marxist, an extreme lefty, who killed JFK, right?
And speaking of the Constitution, you closed comments on this post after saying the following:
You cannot dismiss a court ruling because you don't like it, Steve.
It's the law.
You can disagree with it all you want to...but it's the law of the land.
The Supreme Court has declared the EPA has the authority to deal with greenhouse gases as pollutants.
The EPA is now doing so.
This is law. Don't like it? Take up arms, then. Go, fight and die for your freedom to pollute. But you can't ignore laws you don't like, because we are a nation of laws, founded on laws.
For 58 years, there was another law that people didn't like, separate-but-equal, set in stone by the Supreme Court in Plessy v. Ferguson. You know how it got overturned? A court case, not by the taking up of arms. Separate-but-equal was the law until it wasn't. Don't think that what the EPA is doing based on Massachusetts v. EPA is permanent.
"The rhetoric used by Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, etc., is also one other thing: free speech, protected by the Constitution. These people had nothing to do with yesterday's tragic shooting. Nothing. But if you persist in saying it is, then you shouldn't have a problem sharing responsibility for the Marxist, an extreme lefty, who killed JFK, right?"
Of course he has a problem with it. He's locked threads rather than allow free speech. In the end he's just another lefty fascist, like they all are.
Readers like StarStorm here just enable him out of guilt.
The pathology of a lefty hate blogger is fascinating.
Yanno, every time I see "free speech", I have to bury my face in my palms because I just know it's going to be intended as something that doesn't mean what it actually means, and actually doesn't apply.
And... ICP does not disappoint! Man, this dismissing you as a moron thing. It's so easy, it's like you're out to help!
Also, "lefty fascist". That's funny.
Well Steve, I think there's a case to made that free speech sometimes causes douchebaggery to pop up here and there. The other part of that case is that, when the language of violence is used, it's important that people point out that that IS violent and irresponsible.
No one ever said that Osama Bin Laden wasn't reinterpreting the Koran to meet his own personal agenda. People like him have been called out, from all quarters, to denounce his opinions. Now we turn to our own nation, and we have Rush, Beck and a legion of others and they use violent imagery and accusatory language nearly every day and have done for years.
It is no surprise that a rather unbalanced man committed such a horrid act after incorporating that sort of knowledge into his madness. He's not the first, he won't be the last. But rather than tone down their own rhetoric, they double down on it. They claim that since they never pulled the trigger themselves, they are blameless. And they will continue to point at liberals and suggest how much better were we 'gone' somehow.
We have every right to criticize Palin et al for their use of violent language. We have every right to demand that they tone themselves down. The overwhelming problem comes from the stream of hate coming from their direction - small blogs and the odd comment on Kos does not fucking equate to the daily shoveling of conspiracies and lies popping from talk radio and Fox News. They have the duty to make the first step. And if they don't, then it is their fault for charging the atmosphere and encouraging the radical elements of the Right to action.
That's not taking away their free speech, that's telling them that they are responsible for actions made as a result of that speech. That they don't want to lie in the bed they made isn't surprising, but this will get worse if they don't. So, I imagine it will get worse, and what else can I think except that it's what they wanted in the first place? Question is, is it what YOU want?
"That's not taking away their free speech, that's telling them that they are responsible for actions made as a result of that speech."
Doesn't the same standard apply to Zandar then?
Yes or no?
abanterer:
The other part of that case is that, when the language of violence is used, it's important that people point out that that IS violent and irresponsible.
Your point, and your comment, is pathetic. Jerks like Al and Tipper Gore, along with ambulance-chasing shysters, used the same stupid arguments against musicians like Ozzy Osbourne and the members of Judas Priest. They were blamed for people who committed suicide, attempted to commit suicide, and the violent crimes of others. You do want the government to take away someone else's free speech. You just don't want to say it exactly that way because you're a complete hypocrite.
No one ever said that Osama Bin Laden wasn't reinterpreting the Koran to meet his own personal agenda. People like him have been called out, from all quarters, to denounce his opinions.
We have bin Laden-types running governments in Iran, Sudan, Gaza, Lebanon, Pakistan, plus the Taliban when they ran Afghanistan. It's quite obvious these denunciations don't come from the left, and don't go far enough since this Islamist filth still run these countries and regions.
And in the end this all comes back to lefty fascism.
This blog's ugly liberal fascist partisan bias is showing through with its assumptions about Jared Lee Loughner before the facts are out, including the calls to tone done free speech.
This is America.
Come and make me.
Or does my free speech frighten you?
And abanterer still has to answer my question.
Doesn't the same standard you say applies to the right apply to Zandar's "hate speech"?
Oh I'm sorry, Steve. Did I mention that I live in America with the free speech and not in the Middle East, rife a plenty with theocrats and overlords et al? How silly of me not to have pointed this out.
The people with the free speech, and ideally that would be us, we have criticized Bin Laden and his buddies use of holy writ to be used for violent ends. I'm sorry this hasn't magically rendered the governments they controlled into frogs, but there is a certain limit to the effectiveness of telling people off in making them step down from power.
But yeah, they DID come from the left. Liberals did not take up the banner of international Jihad when 9/11 occurred - maybe they did according to Fox, but mainly we were pissed that we were about to bomb a nation into dust for the actions of a few people, most of whom didn't come from there. You can find them if you use the Google, I'm sure.
And let me be the first to call you a dick for purposely reinterpreting a point I made to say something I didn't. First off, many of those 'jerks' came from quite a spectrum of conservative Christians like the AFA afraid of the corruption of youth by musicians. Strange that they didn't show up next to shysters and Tipper Gore. Secondly, there was indeed a hue and cry from the liberal side resisting any censorship of music. I point out that Professor Gates of Cambridge was the one that defended 2 Live Crew in court, and that Jello Biafra and Frank Zappa testified against the PMRC.
But, most importantly, it is also free speech to point out when someone's speech is creating an atmosphere of violence. In fact, it has to be done, because without that, there IS no debate, just demands. We have a network of media that is all but calling for a cull of liberals, or at least telling them to shut up and do nothing, and you're asking us to just lie back and enjoy it. So, who's speech has been lost now?
If I am a hypocrite, then you are as well, Steve. But at least my hypocrisy isn't getting people killed.
And for our Problem,
Did Zandar suggest we take up arms against the GOP?
Has he alluded to poisoning John Boehner, as Beck did to Pelosi?
Did he advocate liberals showing up to Tea Party rallies and GOP meet n Greets with firearms?
Is he on the radio for hours at a time, praying for a military insurrection against an incoming GOP House?
Zandar's speech consists of calling out the GOP leadership for being morally bankrupt asshats who care more about their bottom line and getting re-elected than governing this nation wisely. It is a general opinion that I agree with, because it has the force of being true.
Zandar has every right as the host of this blog to say what he wants. You can disagree, and if a thread gets out of hand, he can close it. They do it on nearly every other blog in the whole of the interweb, and if you say they don't on con blogs, I will laugh myself into apoplexy.
Your calls to close this site are based on stupid; willful hypocrisy for reasons I have yet to fathom, unless it turns out that you two dated or something and it went badly.
So, the answer to your question is: You asked a stupid question. Because this blog is not creating advocating violence, nor is it obligated to do anything that didn't happen anywhere else. Palin's still making pronouncements on FB, the GOP still took control of the House, Fox News did not switch formats to a yule log, and Talk radio still exists, I just checked. Why is this site obligated to close down when all that is still in existence? No one told Palin to log off FB, we'd just like her to be such a douche. Maybe it's asking to much of her.
Still waiting.
Still crying softly, hoping for attention.
The masturbation isn't fulfilling anymore, but I can't feel loved any other way.
Please notice me.
Please?
I tried to post on this three times yesterday, but wasn't able to get through - sorry. In short, Problem is an ass still, and is using false equivalence to make a stupid point. Steve, comparing the PMRC and labeling records for content isn't 'quite' the same as a decades worth of escalating violent speech towards liberals in general and liberal politicians in particular. Moreover, I'm not sure what sort of effect I'm supposed to have in telling off an autocracy whose main language isn't mine, but I suspect it will limited.
Off to work!
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